Be Human, Be Visionary, Be Brave: How Virgin Group are Putting People at the Heart of Business

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In this episode, we are joined by Nikki Humphrey, Chief People Officer at Virgin Group.

Nikki Humphrey shares how Virgin is putting people at the heart of their business, embracing the future of work, and introducing values and flexible working approaches. Nikki also shares how their dyslexic thinking campaign transformed the narrative around dyslexia and how Virgin Voyages have disrupted the cruise industry's working standards.

Episode Highlights:

How Virgin Group are Putting People at the Heart of Business
How they have embraced the future of work and introduced a values-led approach to flexible working.
How their Dyslexic Thinking Campaign Transformed the Narrative around Dyslexia
How Virgin Voyages have Disrupted the Cruise Industry's Working Standards

Nikki 0:00
We had sort of shaped three key areas that we thought reflected where we were at as a business. And this was about being visionary, being human being brave, which I think are traits that are different. They don't learn virgin that Well, I think they can resonate with it even on the outside looking in. But we then went and said, Right, okay, we need to go and really engage with the rest of our teams on this and really get from them. What does it mean to work at Virgin? And we did some really cool stuff, as you'd expect. We did a big lesson day across a couple of our, a number of our different sites, we really heard firsthand, from our people about what was the good, the bad, the ugly of working at Virgin. And it reinforced those three traits around? What does it take to be brave? And we use, we use our people's words to describe it, not corporate language, which I have a kind of real aversion to, because people don't believe it. They read it and when, what do you mean? How does that impact what I do? Actually is proper language that the average person looks at it goes okay, I get that and I can really relate to it.

Chris Rainey 1:11
I've won Welcome back to the HR leaders podcast. On today's episode, I'm joined by Nicky Humphrey, who is the Chief People Officer at Virgin Group. During the episode, Nikki shares how Virgin Group are putting people at the heart of business, how they've embraced the future of work and introduced a values and approach to flexible working, how their dyslexic thinking campaign transformed the narrative around dyslexia. And last but not least, how virgin voyages have disrupted the cruise industries, working standards. As always, before we dive into the video, make sure you hit the subscribe button, turn on notification bell and follow on your favourite podcast platform. With that being said, let's jump in. Nikki, welcome to the show. How are you?

Nikki 1:53
I'm good. Thank you. Lovely to see you.

Chris Rainey 1:55
Nice to see you. I think I said to you when we first spoke, I've been stalking you on LinkedIn for a while. I don't know how people tend to change the language rather than I when I say it's because still king point. Yeah, it's a sticking point as a flower was there. It's a good talking point. Yeah, it's just so interesting. I've been doing this for so long since I was 17. And what 35 now and I kind of followed the careers indirectly of many leaders. And we were one of them that I've come across so many different times at different companies. So it's always nice to speak. out again. I know it sounds really weird, but that's how sad I am. I love my job that much that I follow everyone. What I want to do anywhere going, but how are you? How are things?

Nikki 2:38
No, I'm good. We're, we're having a good time I'm at Virgin, been there for the last year? And yeah, we're having some fun. No, that's the tough bit to do. But there's loads of fun as well, which is good.

Chris Rainey 2:49
It's always gonna be a combination of both. But um, tell everyone a little bit more about you, you know, did you choose HR? Or did did HR choose you?

Nikki 2:57
Alright, interesting story, really, I was at university and was studying psychology. And I had it in my mind that I was going to be an occupational psychologist and I was in as you do back then you're reaching out to find people that have got that type of job, and what's their advice that gives you and I remember having this brilliant career chat with this occupational psychologist who said, that's great, Nikki, but you really need to go and get some practical experience in HR. So I saw Okay, that's interesting. Back then, what does HR do? Yeah. And so I went and pursued that and never went back, I sort of split my journey into sort of three key parts, probably reflection of how old I'm starting to get. But first part of my career was definitely first sort of seven, eight years was I describe as learning my trade. So really worked for, I think it was back then three organisations, but just really the hard stuff around HR, you know, redundancies, you know, hiring, just like the core skills that you kind of needed to know. And then I then moved into the sort of second part of my career was really moving and learning from middle management up to more senior leadership. And I worked in financial services that was there during the financial crisis, or tough, really, really tough, tough, but actually, my gosh, in terms of building up your personal resilience, we had never seen anything like that before. And actually, I was in HR back then people function that was been really progressive, during really, really difficult times that we could see across the world. But and we and I was in one of the big banks, and we were needing to integrate to banks. HR was at the heart of it in terms of the cultural transformation, actually recreating a new bank made up of two banks. And I'll tell you why it was well a career enhancing put it like that. And so I was there for quite a while. Quite a chunk of my career I moved around the beauty of being in a large bank was you could go move in lots of different divisions that had their own stuff, little mini cultures, etc. And I've really got some brilliant experience really developed my leadership sort of capability and experience as well as also, what do you think building on my HR experience?

Chris Rainey 5:19
What do you think you took away from the like key skills or attributes you took away from the work you've leading HR during the crisis,

Nikki 5:27
the main two was one managing your own personal resilience, and leading an ambiguity. So I mean, literally, I was at, I was at one of the banks that really fell over and they got taken over. And literally, we were finding out the updates of our own company on the 10 o'clock news. Wow, they couldn't even we couldn't even get internal updates, because they couldn't respond quickly enough because it literally was crashing around us. And it was really interesting. Seeing other leaders I what I perceived to be really senior leaders really struggling to cope with that uncertainty, the personal impact on themselves, both financially job wise, and I learnt loads. And interesting. Little did I realise that would set me up in really good stead to actually what we've experienced the last two or three years. And what, when I went when we had all COVID hitters, I literally felt like I'd been taken straight back, I was like, at a time machine, I suddenly thought, these are all the skills and experience that I was using back in 2007 2008. It's quite extraordinary how different obviously, but how, how, how relatable, there was so much the things around your person, you know, the ambiguity, not knowing what's happening next, how you personally manage that and be resilient to it really kicked in? Yeah. So yeah, so that was kind of the second part. And then the final part of it guess the journey I've been on, it's really been what I describe as moving into kind of running my own gig. So this is really holding Chief People Officer roles, and moved out to financial services moved to Virgin Atlantic. And since then, I've been there. I've been at John Lewis, and now I moved a virgin and absolutely love it. Absolutely love amazing having my own playground.

Chris Rainey 7:11
I love I love you mentioned the fact that you that prepared you for the pandemic, because I saw various leaders either rise to the top, like yourself who had been there during, for example, the 2008 crash and they were prepared. They can, you know, lead through ambiguity, they had that resilience, etc. And it made it made me it was a make or break moment for many, many companies, but also leaders. And do you think that you could be a a an effective chief people officer if you hadn't gone through that?

Nikki 7:42
Oh, good question. That I just think it really helps build up your breadth of skills and experience so that you find it more manageable in the new situations that hit you. Mind, you can't take away what your experiences are. But I I sort of go. When I think about a lot of advice I give to others. It's always about going to as much as you can push yourself into many different experiences, because you take so much value don't always stay in what you're doing. I mean, it sort of comes back to that. So I definitely, yeah, I look back and I don't I don't suppose I appreciated at the time. How much all of the crisis the financial crisis gave me in terms of broader experience that you don't then necessarily use a normal business as usual, but you're actually gonna use in those more kind of crisis moments.

Chris Rainey 8:30
Yeah, I think it helped me like because I was in sales during the time half the company got laid off during that question 2008 But I didn't get laid off because I was a revenue generating function. So they were like, Okay, we need to keep making money. So I was one of the very few people who got the dinner get let go, which was kind of strange to the saw. So many of my friends colleagues just go, but so when it came to the next financial service to COVID, which is obviously in its own crisis, I then because of what I learned during 2008, I used it as an opportunity. So when all of the other companies were closing down and laying people off, I actually went full steam in other direction of hiring people. Completely digitising the business so I could you know, capitalise all moment and we like for XR revenue during that time. And I would never have been able to do that if I hadn't gone through that before. If that makes sense. I think you feel braver

Nikki 9:25
and you feel kind of stronger to go give it a go because you realise that is that opportunity.

Chris Rainey 9:31
I know recently you've gone through sort of a big sales transformation in regards to the company's values and traits, purpose and mission. What before we jump into the details, what was it that made you decide to go on that journey?

Nikki 9:45
So we at Virgin we have had our purpose for 1520 years changing business for good I mean, it's like the core of what virgin as a brand wants to impact And that ripples out in any of our virgin companies that we have. And so we had that just, that was just part of what we do. And I think it's fair to say we had over the years started to sort of build up lots of versions of, actually, what are some of your brand values? And what are some behaviours you want? And, and I would say, kind of probably complicated the landscape. And I am a firm believer of, we must always think about how do you turn the complex into the simple because actually, you know, we're very, we're all very busy people, and people need to hear and be able to take stuff easily and quickly. Because there's just so much in people's life, isn't it? There's just so much kind of stimulus that's given your way. And so we had an opportunity to go and say, right, okay, we know, our purpose is what a purpose changing business for good, that has not changed at all. But actually, how do we, how do we go and articulate clearly about how we want to show up? What are our traits that come with that? And we had, we had sort of shaped three key areas that we thought reflected where we were at as a business. And this was about being visionary, being human being brave, which I think are traits that if people if they don't know, Virgin, that Well, I think they can resonate with it even on the outside looking in. But we then went and said, Right, okay, we need to go and really engage with the rest of our teams on this and really get from them. What does it mean to work at Virgin? And we did some really cool stuff, as you'd expect, we did a big lesson day across a couple of our, a number of our different sites, we really heard firsthand, from our people about what was the good, the bad, the ugly of working at Virgin? And it reinforced those three traits around? What does it take to be brave? And we use, we use our people's words to describe it, not corporate language, which I have a kind of real aversion to, because people don't believe it. They read it. What do you what do you mean? How does that impact what I do actually use proper language that the average person looks at it goes, Okay, I get that, and I can really relate to it. And we came back around, you know, being visionary, being human, which being human isn't particularly strong virgin traits, what

Chris Rainey 12:13
it means to be human, what did you hear from the team? And what does it mean to you?

Nikki 12:16
Oh, it was so. So what was just so reinforcing was, I tend to use words such as I can just be myself, I can be who I am, I can say what I want to say I can wear, what I what I want to wear, I can show up and I can have fun, I can feel sad I could. And that was such a that's been a kind of strong kind of cultural description of virgin in whichever virgin company you go to. And I said earlier that I was at Virgin Atlantic for a while and, and that was my very first impression of working within a virgin business, where that was just so strong of that real sense of you can be who you want to be. And it's not just the rhetoric, it truly you can, you can turn up who you are. The other part was about really caring, a real warmth, and really caring for individuals. And that care, again, comes out in I think both some of our people policies, the way we do business, how we put people first, but they were some of the themes that came through and and it was really believed. And we you know, as you'd imagine, in our big lesson, we had loads of post it notes up everywhere, where people had written exactly their words, how it felt, and the themes were just so strong, and they were so anchored around that. And it was, it was very reinforcing. And that I think helped us go and say, right, let's go in. Now we've got these three traits that we've clearly articulated. Let's go and take away some of the other noise that I guess some HR functions are known for going to go create lots of other different frameworks, actually, let's just pull that all away. Let's just keep it simple. Let's just anchor around. That's what when we show up when we're at work, and we show up here, what are some of the traits that we really want to, you know, kind of hold ourselves to?

Chris Rainey 14:01
Yeah, and I want to think about, like, what it means to be human. It's also inclusion. Yeah. I think that's a big element.

Nikki 14:10
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it's, that shows up in lots of different ways. And again, for me, it's it's not only been inclusive, but it's also really creating that strong sense of belonging, where people actually feel they can be, feel and look and be different, but belong in within a community, a group with those different sets, but really belong. Because sometimes you have to watch that by being inclusive. It's because you're more similar, that you feel more included because you're actually with other like minded people. So sort of really understanding that difference, creating inclusion, but also that really strong sense of belonging as well, which I think opens it up to really think about putting yourself in other people's shoes about what what, what will they need to have to really go and buy Love and be part of this community, this team this business.

Chris Rainey 15:03
Yeah, I was interested when I saw the visionary one, because I'm sure like the average employee, if you ask them, they wouldn't say, they may maybe not say visionary, you know, as as. So when you say visionary, what does it mean to be visionary?

Nikki 15:17
Yeah, so this is about being being innovative. Experimenting, I mean, this comes under this firmly comes back to our founder and Richard Branson's influence, and he's done this for 50 odd years. I mean, just, you know, how do you go in really think about what what is the art of the possible what could you go and do? What could you go into Disrupt? Why are we accepting things in the way they were? And I think I mean, he's his history is, is, you know, and his impact is kind of well documented. But it's that kind of constant relentlessness to think about, What impact could I go and have? And so we are, you know, being visionary is a big word. And so, again, in some of our articulation of it, we're helping people that might be I don't know, in the tech team, whatever. Think about, well, actually, what could their part be making a difference or doing something different, that's different to how we normally do think so we try and break it, break it down to be really relevant to someone that holds, you know, an important but kind of regular job rather than believing it. So you've got to be in some big strategic leadership role to be visionary.

Chris Rainey 16:28
Yeah, I love that, and visionary and brave. And it also encourages like that psychological safety, that we're encouraging you to be visionary, be brave, try new things. That's how do we disrupt ourselves and always challenge the status quo? Which is what you need.

Nikki 16:46
Yeah, no, completely,

Chris Rainey 16:47
especially in this day and age. I love that. Could you talk about some of the I know, obviously, Virgin Atlantic, for example, is a long, long standing ally of the LGBTQ i A plus. So there's a lot to remember there. Now. Could you talk about some of the work you've done around that?

Nikki 17:05
I right from the start. It's been a advocate, and an ally of that community. And I sort of go back to, you know, 2019, there was a first Pride flight, which was, I mean, I could tell you hot tickets, where it flew from London to New York to go and celebrate 50 years of the Stonewall uprising in New York. So that was like a real moment, and very kind of symbolic to just show how important is the business, how you know how much we stand up for our LGBT rights. I mean, just, that's really critical. We've also done things such as we fly out to the Caribbean. And we've challenged some of the areas we've flown out to where they haven't been so open to business that actually they haven't been so welcoming to that community. And, and so we've gone and partnered with businesses to go and promote the importance and the value of being open to all in in business. So pride ourselves on that, and we've received some good, I think, recognition in our voice and our impact and really demonstrating what we mean by that. And I think we, you know, we've shown that by encouraging other other countries that are maybe yeah. Maybe less open minded, to where we would want them to

Chris Rainey 18:25
be. And I remember seeing in the news, because it kind of made the headlines when you announced about removing the requirements for your people to wear gender uniforms. Yeah, planes. I mean, this, I remember seeing that all over the news. And I think when I spoke to your team do like, we have, like, 100% increase in applications.

Nikki 18:45
I mean, to be honest, but yeah, I mean, it was I mean, Virgin Atlantic anyway, was the go to place for, you know, all people with all sorts of individuality to go and truly go and be themselves. It was another step to go and say, Look, we really recognise individuality. And typically, especially within the airline industry, there's some really strict uniform rules, and in particular around what were gender specific. And so we did we kind of busted the no gender neutral, so actually, you can wear whatever you feel comfortable in. We also things like, you know, historically, tattoos needed to be covered up. We said no, actually, you know, you'd be yourself you'd be yourself. The important thing is how you look after your customers on the flight. They're how you create an amazing experience. You know, whether you have tattoos or whether you wear you know, as you identify different gender and want to wear, you know, what you can be yourself and you'll, you'll actually be better and you'll be even better with your customers. And so that's definitely had a positive impact. And if you go look at engagement figures for Atlantic as well as their inclusion stats, they're just there. Whatever really high no surprise, I think what's amazing is then that kind of the wider ecosystem impacts that you say, with 100% uplift in job applications, it suddenly becomes you have an impact on the talent acquisition, people wanting to go there. And you know, it's very, I think, very positive in lots of other areas, not just with the policy, that's that's been changed.

Chris Rainey 20:21
And also the experience that the customers have, right, they're gonna have people that are happy, excited to be at a job doing what they do. And that revels all the way through. Yeah. And also, it's a good example of like, you know, it's great to have your, your your values, but how are you practically implementing those, and this is as a good example of the company living, living its values and actually putting policies in place to have actual long standing impact as well. Another thing that I came across, which was interesting, which not many companies, in my experience, do a lot of work on, is there is the campaign you did around dyslexic thinking. And I love that, because so could you share a bit more about that?

Nikki 21:01
Yeah, well, it's, it started a couple of years back with our founder is dyslexic. And it was pretty clear with some of the research that has gone on, and a lot of work that Richard personally sponsored with charities and organisations, for example, made by dyslexia that's created a lot of it to really go in, I think, break down some of the taboos around neurodiversity, and then in particular, around the left dyslexia about actually the strengths it does bring. And as we go in term it, there's superpowers that sit with that. And it we started this amazing movement, I'd say where we talked about, actually, how do you go and promote and recognise the value of that, that the skills that come with it if you're dyslexic, and we had such a brilliant response from many people across our virgin companies, that people came forward to talk about their dyslexia, what they felt it brought to them in terms of the enhancements they did in their roles? What, what was the kind of extra magic that came with it? So one internally, it was amazing. But what I think we feel most proud of is the impact we've had externally. So I don't know whether you're aware, Chris, but we would the work that we went and did we actually got dyslexic dyslexic skills put in as a recognisable skill on within LinkedIn. So amazing. And yeah, and so when we first launched that we about 10,000, people went and clicked dyslexic skills as one of their skills as part of

Chris Rainey 22:36
everything else. So good.

Nikki 22:38
Yeah, I love that. And now and now we've got about, I think, 25,000 people on LinkedIn that have selected that. So that in itself just starts to normalise it start to say, No, it's not different. There's a problem with with, you know, neurodiversity, or with dyslexia, actually, this is a real positive, and this is a real, real skill. And in fact, we've had that terminology put in dictionary.com, as well. So it's starting to, yeah, you know, we feel proud that we have an impact both internally, we know, internally, people can can show up and show those differences, but having an impact with actually wider across society and with how other employers view it, we feel is really positive. So yeah, we feel particularly proud. And in fact, dyslexia made by dyslexia is just launching for later on this year, some training that actually will help people teams, leaders gonna understand it more. So actually, it's not just about the person that is with dyslexia that has to sort of, you know, that's a fight there cause but promote it, but actually, what's really important is when your line manager, your leader really understands it, and understands the power of it. So we're doing some great work in collaboration with them around launching that training as well.

Chris Rainey 23:52
Yeah. I mean, it's like personally really, like I struggled to read and write Riyadh growing up and, and it was something I was embarrassed for a long time, I didn't learn how to read to years and years after my friends and I to stay behind school and do like, as you get bullied, because I just have to stay behind do different classes and stuff like that. And even going into business for the first time, I was terrified about having to write an email or write a proposal, all those things and and it took me a long time to overcome that and ask for help. And, you know, I created templates for myself to help me in terms of my artistic go, and I was very creative and innovative in my thinking, but I didn't know that I didn't understand and that was a value. Now I lean into my strengths and I have I have incredible people that are strong, all the other things.

Nikki 24:44
Yeah, and I was gonna say that's amazing to hear. And we know so many people focus on the difficulty part and that stays with them for a lot longer than you would want it to. Because they they maybe haven't worked that through and it can have such a profound impact content and she'd like to say it's doing some of the some of the interventions you've done, where you know where your strengths are. So you focused on those, and then you sought out interventions to help you on the parts, you're not so strong. And then that's, that's a super skill in itself, isn't it?

Chris Rainey 25:12
Yeah. It's interesting when you can lean in and discover these are my superpowers. And yeah, so I'm glad to hear that. And again, like some of the things you just said are like actual things that are making changes policies getting in a dictionary LinkedIn massive steps. Now from we spoke about, which was before was about virgin voyages, you know, actually quite a few friends that work on cruise ships and stuff like that. And they've always told me, it's not the easiest thing. A lot of people think, oh, cruise ship or go on a cruise. This is amazing, as well, but it's not, you know, it is an amazing experience. I don't say it's not, but it's also comes with its challenges. So can you talk about some of the ways that you kind of disrupted the normal roles of the crew of crews working?

Nikki 25:55
Yeah, and absolutely. And we feel, again, pretty proud, we feel this is really virgin, you know, really changing business for good. When we were getting close to finalising creating virgin voyages, and really thinking about, actually, what's the experience, what do we need to do for our employees? On those ships, we, we literally, there was just no barriers at all. And we wanted to disrupt some of the colour norms, as you've talked about, because, you know, cruising as a job is really tough. I mean, typically, teams are away for six months at a time, you know, sailing to very glamorous places. And the customers are having a very, very glamorous time. But it's pretty, pretty tough if you are working on the cruise ship. And we were really aware of that and wanted to be differentiated to actually, we could attract talent that was saying, no, we want to go to Virgin voyages, not necessarily some of the competition. So there was things such as, right from day one, all employees are given free Wi Fi on the ship, which might sound really obvious, but actually, if you start adding that up on a daily amount, it's not affordable. What we know is, is that people can feel really isolated, yes, they're on a ship with everyone else. But actually, that's their moments where they feel most isolated from their friends and family that are unsure. So being able to have that free Wi Fi that has, you know, total connectivity when they need it to go and connect socially, you know, with their kind of support network was really important. So that was just to give them things such as, which I think this is brilliant. You know, historically, if you're in a relationship with another employee on a cruise, you know, all separated out know, if people are in a relationship, they're together, they can have a shared cabin. That again, we're just, you know, what, we're just being human, we're recognising that human beings. Yeah. And that actually, they're going to be if they're happier, because actually, they're spending time and able to live with their partner. They can they're going to be I tell you, what, a lot happier, but then the experience they create for their customers. And then just and then just I'd say, I mean, you think they're almost hygiene factors. But again, really important, just things such as free laundry services, free cleaning services, and for their personal space, just the stuff that makes it easier, so that they're not exactly, yeah, yeah,

Chris Rainey 28:16
they can focus on their job. And,

Nikki 28:19
yeah, exactly. And I think it's sort of that balance of recognising it is tough conditions, because not everybody can cope with going away to work for sort of six months at a time. And therefore, what are some of the important things that maybe historically or good other organisations have thought? Oh, no, absolutely, you know, we've got to keep really strict rules on it. We actually think by lessening that by literally putting your people first, that just makes them in the first instance, fill care for loved part of a family. And therefore, they anyway, just go on and focus around their roles, and what's the experience they can create, because they come from a place of feeling contented and satisfied and well looked after? So I think it's a really simple equation, but it's amazing how many organisations don't come at it from that perspective. And I guess we pride ourselves that we do.

Chris Rainey 29:06
Yeah, again, it goes back to the house values. Exactly. It all starts here. Everything you just mentioned isn't like a fancy policy or you know, it's simple. You mentioned in the fact that these are simple things but by nature, those are the things that are most impactful on someone's life. And what it means to be human right connection Yeah, connection connecting with family friends, it is part of what it means to be human you need that connection. as well.

Nikki 29:37
That's something I really love. We have it at Virgin Money they've done a whole lot of work about creating a life more virgin for employees, the one thing that they're doing which I just think is brilliant, and should get some of my my peers to think about why we have what we have is as part of a like more virgin, they've removed the majority of their people policies. and said, No, we are all adults, we all come to work, and I trust you to make the right decision. And you think about how many and I'm sure there'll be a few listeners thinking, you're gonna have a look at how many people policies you have, and why you've created them. And over the years, they would have been built up with good intent, but all these rules and conditions and actually Benjamini completely flipped it the other way and said, No, no, no, we're going to remove all of that, because we're going to trust you. Because you are, guess what, you're an adult, you're we employ you. So therefore, you know, we know you want to you want to do the right thing, it's a very, very tiny majority that don't want to the majority want to and I just think psychologically, that real high trust, again, treating someone in a really humane way, you know, trusting them as an adult, because guess what, they're a fully functioning adult outside of work and take some really big decisions. Why would they not do the same at work? So I love it. So I, you know, we sort of you see that red thread go across, and a lot of the decisions and how we run things across our different voting companies,

Chris Rainey 31:01
no, sends a very clear message, doesn't it? And for so long, we've like punished punished the many for the sins of a few people, right? And yeah, yeah, I love that. Again, it's more that the message it sends, right, the trust factor, like you're saying, and that yeah, that in itself speaks volumes. Yeah, those companies that say, Okay, we're going to, we don't want to having a policy where you can figure out if your manager have a conversation, and figure out how you're going to work together, what how you work, when you work, where you work, and oh, okay, great. I don't actually get up there actually trust me to do my job, which is obviously, I actually I'm actually I think I personally believe everyone goes to work wanting to do a great job, and no one, I don't think anyone wakes up because I'm gonna be terrible today. I'm gonna do that. Right. It's the perfect society around them. It's the company, it's the culture, a lot of factors that come into play that cause the cause, that if a big question just randomly came to my head, like, you've shared so many things, but like, what would you say you're most proud of?

Nikki 32:11
Oh, that is a big question. I. So on a personal level, yeah, I'll be the Yeah, on a personal level, it would be awesome. The environment, I think I've created for many people to thrive. And I guess I the the impact is most apparent, well, those that are either in my team or worked closely with me, and then you know, depending on you know, sort of how far out that circle goes, but I, I pride myself that I think, I've always tried to be, you know, really authentic, what you see is what you get, and create the space and opportunity for people to really thrive. And I do that, whether they're in my team or not. And I just feel proud about that. And I, you know, might that might feel small in the whole scheme of things, but it's just something that stuck with me. And I can sort of look back over the years and see people that have gone on to go and be amazing in their own personal careers and personal sort of decisions, or they've kind of majorly grown in confidence. So they've developed their skills that further I, I just find that really satisfying. And clearly, as I as my roles changed, I sort of think across the whole organisation, and how do you create the right conditions for whole teams and whole businesses to flourish? But on a personal level, that's that sits with me very dearly with people I interact with on an everyday basis, I always come back to that core of, you know, how can I help them be at their best and probably get to push them to go and be better than they ever believed they could go and be? Yeah, when

Chris Rainey 33:50
you when you see that, that's really what it's about, right? Like, whenever when I first became a leader, I never really understood that. Like, as before, it was always Chris being an individual contributor. And when I kind of look back, well, if I ask myself the same question, it's like seeing that growth, people, as you said, doing more than more than they believed they could. And like seeing the impact of smile, and that has, how does it make you feel when you see people thriving, and the impact that it has and the ripple effect?

Nikki 34:19
Because I have never been asked that. I just have a real a really strong sense of when I say satisfaction, that's that's to light but a real sense of purpose and, and a difference that I've made. I just, yeah, it's it's kind of a really, it's so deep inside me. Yeah, that sense of I love Oh, that's so exciting. Especially because, especially when I've seen people that I didn't know, I feel I've had an influence at some point way back, and then I see they're off doing something and I just think, Oh, that's great. You know, it was great. I just, I just find it very A heartwarming yeah that it's hard to get confident. Yeah.

Chris Rainey 35:06
You feel you're like, I was asking myself was Oh, when I when I asked you to describe.

Nikki 35:13
I mean, just, ya know, it's just, it was amazing. It's amazing to see it and I, I just Yeah, I think it's yeah, it's wonderful. It's wonderful to see it.

Chris Rainey 35:22
Yeah. Love it, you're like, because I'm gonna think about that more now.

Nikki 35:25
Yeah, yeah, he's gonna do that, again,

Chris Rainey 35:28
we're gonna stop crying, stop crying on the podcast to get really emotional. Listen, it's been really fun having you on the show. I appreciate it. I'm glad we managed to connect. And before I let you go, you know, what, what advice would you kind of give to those CPAs of tomorrow? There's the HR leaders of tomorrow, they're going to be sitting in your seat one day. And then we'll say goodbye.

Nikki 35:52
Yeah. I mean, I sort of go back to probably what I've talked about as in the very strong need to be human and to really, really be leaders in their field around the importance of people within a business. And, you know, I think if you're in a CPO role, you're in a very privileged position, you know, you're, you know, working with the rest of your, your peer group, and make sure that your impact and influence is heard, because I think it can, you know, the ripple effect, and the impact on the overall business and on your people that are within it, is enormous. So, you know, I sort of go back to the traits I talked about, you know, being visionary, really not stopping still, you know, pushing the boundaries, being brave, you know, taking yourself out your comfort zone, you have to I mean, that's, that's, you know, it's just a given, you've got to go and do that, you know, keep trying different things, doesn't matter if you fail, keep trying different things. And then that final point of being human, you just have to, because that's the way the world's going. And if you don't care, if you don't care, if you haven't got that element, we are seeing, you know, the balance has gone the other way people are making their own decisions, they will go to places where they feel cared for, and they can be themselves. They're not going to tolerate staying in organisations where that's, you know, that's put further down the priority list.

Chris Rainey 37:16
Yeah. Love it. Well, listen, I appreciate you coming on. I love everything you're doing. We happy for you. Congrats to you. And the team. Obviously, it's, you know, it's a journey, not a destination. So it's just, it's, you know, we're just, it's just the beginning. And you're like, You're laughing you're like, you're like, Oh, I've got so much work to do. But that's great.

Nikki 37:38
Thank you, Chris. Thank you so much for inviting me on and you know, loved our conversation. It's, yeah, be great to see you.

Chris Rainey 37:45
No worries. I wish all the best until next week.

Nikki 37:49
Thanks a lot. See you soon.